NAIA President and CEO Jim Carr joins Alan and Austin to discuss the potential move to five seasons of competition. They explore why the NAIA is considering this change, the options under review, what it could mean for student-athletes and institutions, and how member feedback will help shape the path forward.
Austin Bennett (00:17)
Welcome to the Right Way to Play podcast. No hype, no fluff, just real conversations about character-driven competition and the future of college sports. Alan, here we go.
Alan Grosbach (00:27)
Here we go. Austin, question for you. What do you think the UFC and the NAIA have in common?
Austin Bennett (00:31)
Man, we’re both extremely popular right now.
Alan Grosbach (00:33)
That’s true. That’s true. Otherwise, I mean, at a glance, you probably wouldn’t think a whole lot. You know, you think UFC is one of the most intense combat sports in the world. And then you think the NEI, it’s the home to 80,000, 85,000 plus student-athletes competing in 30 national championship sports now. Shout out women’s flight football. I think the similarities are like what it takes to be excellent. You know, you see that play out in both. Today’s guest knows better than just about anyone.
Austin Bennett (00:59)
You got that right, Alan. Brandon Buchanan is the newly appointed commissioner of the KCAC, one of the NAIA’s most historic conferences. But before stepping into college athletics leadership, Brandon spent nearly eight years with the United States Anti-Doping Agency, helping oversee one of the most rigorous anti-doping programs in professional sports as a part of the UFC. From managing global sporting events and ensuring the integrity of competition to now leading 14 NAIA institutions, 28 sports, and thousands of student-athletes, Brandon has seen athletics from just about every angle: as a student-athlete, as a coach, administrator, and now a commissioner. Today we’re talking about what that journey has taught him about leadership, integrity, culture, and why he believes small college athletics continues to make such a meaningful impact. Brandon, welcome to the show.
Brandon Buchanan (01:42)
Hi guys, thanks for having me. I don’t know how I’m going to follow Ben Zobrist, but I will do my best. That podcast was pretty special to a baseball geek like me. That was pretty cool. He wasn’t just a major leaguer; he was a dude. So it’s like, oh boy, I don’t know how I’m going to follow this today, but I’ll do my best.
Austin Bennett (01:57)
We have full confidence in you.
Brandon Buchanan (01:58)
Thank you. I don’t know about that.
Alan Grosbach (01:58)
Excited to have a fellow dude on the podcast; let’s just jump right into it. You worked in professional sports, as Austin said in your intro, through the UFC’s anti-doping program. And then also now you lead, like literally, one of the NAIA’s like OG conferences. Like the schools in the KCAC are, for the most part, original members of the NAIA and have only ever been members of the NAIA, you know. What made that transition special for you? I know you’ve talked about it in a few different forums, but what did you notice?
Brandon Buchanan (02:26)
Yeah, I mean, I’d say I wasn’t necessarily, I guess, surprised about a lot due to my time in college sports before professional sports. You know, I was blessed to play at high levels as well. But I will say it affirmed my thinking that the NEI is as pure and service-oriented as I thought it was. You know, I’ll admit, I had a lot to learn very quickly about the ins and outs of the NAIA, and not only the NAIA, but the KCAC, coming in as the assistant commissioner a couple of years ago, as my prior time call of sports was more at the D1, D2, and Juco levels. But I also had quite the, I guess I was blessed to have quite the crash course on the operation of it all, of the NAIA, but also the KCAC in my first year as the assistant commissioner. I’m very blessed to have the opportunity to do a lot of the job I’m currently doing prior to being named the commissioner last fall. So that helped, obviously, in a lot of ways, train me up, but it also may sound strange. But quite a bit of what I was doing transferred from the UFC quite seamlessly to the job now somehow. I don’t know how, but somehow it did. I will say, professional sports, particularly the one I was heavily involved with where you had the livelihoods of athletes in your hands in some respects, I didn’t take that lightly, and it really led to a lot of you and your team- a team of three or four people, I might add. had the livelihoods of 650-plus athletes worldwide in your hands. Those athletes get paid to show up to fight. They get paid to fight and win, obviously, but they also get paid to do things the right way, and that’s clean sport. And that’s where we came in. So anytime an athlete needed something, no matter the time, country they were in, you were on and ready to go. It could have been 3 a.m. I get calls from Russia. I get calls from Japan, China. Athletes with translators, and you had to be ready and on the go. And there was, there’s just no off-season in the UFC, as we, you know, as all of us know, they kind of just keep rolling, unlike many other professional sports. So, I guess I would say, you know, the pressure is still there now because you want the absolute best for your student-athletes and the institutions that you represent. But the pressure is just at a different level, I guess you could say, comparably speaking. Due to those pressures, professional sports expect that perfection. Now we know that doesn’t exist, but you would better try your best to be as perfect as possible and turn things around as quickly as possible because those athletes are relying on you. Lastly, don’t get me wrong, I really loved my time in the UFC. It taught me so much, and I will always be thankful for that. But this is where I wanted to be. Ultimately, my dream was to always get back to college sports. And help student-athletes have some, if not all, the same great experiences I was fortunate to have as a student-athlete myself.
Austin Bennett (05:00)
So good. So, you spent so much of your career focused on fairness, compliance, and the integrity of sport, not only at the UFC but now here in the NAIA with the KCAC. When you hear the phrase the right way to play, what does that mean to you personally, and how do you think it shows up in the work you do every day as a commissioner?
Brandon Buchanan (05:14)
You know, when I heard the right way to play initially, thought of one word: just service. You know, I think that can capture so much, right? Like in the end, how am I serving our student-athletes and institutions really is all that matters. So, from my perspective, how do I serve my EDs, SIDs, presidents, coaches, FARs, athletic departments, officials, you know, all those things? All those things add up to the right way to play and a better experience for our student-athletes and institutions. And that’s my kind of, that’s kind of my driving force every day as a commissioner. So, you know, to me, when you serve and want what’s best for others, it leads to the right way to play. I don’t think there should be any egos in this role, in my opinion. It’s kind of all about everyone else and how you can help them and how you’re increasing the experiences of your student-athletes while also helping, you know, your institutions retain and grow. You know, that’s the ultimate, you know. For example, we’re serving through education, providing quality education at institutions for our student-athletes across the board, not just the KCAs but the NAIA. We’re serving through championships, providing quality experiences, making it feel big. Like Austin, what you guys are doing at the national level is amazing. And I try to emulate much of that as much as I can. We’re serving through community, trying to partner with our community members. Our community is so deep, 100-plus years in existence. Our community runs deep. So we’re trying to serve as much as we can through the community, through partnerships, and also shining the light on all the hours served in the community by our student-athletes to better develop and help them put in, you know, we’re trying to help them put them in better positions to do so. And we’re serving through promotion and strategic forward thinking, creating as much content as we can, doing the little things that add up to the bigger outcomes. You know, we’re serving through exposure, for example, trying to…tap in and really pour into third parties like NAIA Volley Report, Hoops Report, NAIA Ball, all those things that can help our student-athletes and institutions feel bigger. Trying to do that. And when you’ve been around for a hundred-plus years as a conference, you also tend to have a pretty good following. So how do we continue to lean into that and serve that as much as possible? All those things, I think, add up to the right way to play and develop our student-athletes, most importantly, and increase their experiences. And then also, you know, this came to mind a couple of days ago, but I was always taught relationships over championships. And I think this can capture the right way to play so thoroughly. know, people have to matter, and love matters in the end. And I might’ve been given the gift of leadership in this role, but frankly, I’m only as good as the people around me. So, I just look at myself as, you know, kind of a conductor of a band. I heard this from one of my presidents, and I loved it. You know, conductor of a band, and that band around you is the smart people and the ones serving our student-athletes most importantly. So, you do your best to facilitate and serve those around you. And ultimately, they are the ones playing those instruments that make it all successful for our student-athletes. And you must have great people around you, as it truly takes a village. You know, we’re very blessed to have some of the very best people around us. You know, in this world, we desperately need more individuals as we have, willing to quietly love, humbly show up day after day, making a difference. And it’s that iron sharpening iron in the end that I truly love about the NAIA and
KCAC.
Alan Grosbach (08:15)
So Brandon, I’m gonna build upon that answer a little bit. And obviously you have a pretty diverse perspective, and we’ve asked this of a few different guests we’ve had, so I’m kind of curious about your take as well. So, you would know this well; your presidents know this well. We’re in this time of change in college athletics and higher education generally. And so what’s one thing you think the NEIA gets right that maybe people outside of our association don’t really understand or maybe don’t see on a day-to-day basis?
Brandon Buchanan (08:38)
Yeah, I touched on it earlier. I think it’s the purity of it. We keep it about the love of the game. We keep it about education first. We keep it about developing student athletes as a whole, not only on the field, but off. If at the end of the day, we can turn to our student athletes and help them become better sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, wives, husbands, mothers and fathers down the road, I think that’s what we all strive for. Our goal in the NAIA, in my opinion, is to have those transformational relationships, not those transactional ones that we see so much of these days. You know, we are education-based, and the fact that our student-athletes can, most importantly, go to school, get a quality education, and then still do something they love out of the classroom in competition, and it’s pure at the same time, and they do it for the love of it is pretty remarkable in this day and age. You know, I also think it’s the right move by all of us to continue this approach as much as possible, you know, and to take advantage of this time we’re in, you know, increasing your, increasing our worth, increasing our value. Promoting these pillars that we stand so tall on and also continue to promote our quality institutions and our very competitive athletics that, you know, I think has been a little bit undersold in the past. You know, changing that narrative and making it big is something we’re all doing really well, I believe. And in the NAIA, people matter. In a world of selfishness, we have so many selfless individuals. And I think that means so much to me. And, you know, we all just want what’s best for our student-athletes. And when you have that, it helps someone like me feel so aligned with that purpose, with how I’m walking daily. And I truly believe I’m where I’m supposed to be at this moment in time. you find that, it kind of just allows you to be so clear-minded and not get distracted by all these external factors going on in the other levels. And I’m truly proud to be a commissioner in the NAIA and commissioner of the KCAC. And when you do what you love and love what you do, and have all that combined, it’s not just the job in the end; it’s a calling.
Austin Bennett (10:24)
You mentioned in your role as commissioner, all the different groups and the different ways that you serve. Talk to us: what’s one leadership lesson that you’ve learned that really no degree, no certification, no job description, no training could have taught you?
Brandon Buchanan (10:38)
That’s the loaded question, Austin. You never know it all in leadership. I think leadership is more failure than success. Finding ways to level others up, including yourself, isn’t easy by any means, but I believe it’s worth it. Kind of must fail. You must get it wrong to get it right, and there can’t be this fear of failure because it’s going to happen. Failure is ultimately part of the process, and you learn more from your failures than you do from your wins. Eventually, from those successes through those failures, you develop the standards that you try to live up to daily. And with me, I was considered successful in my baseball days. If I got it right three out of 10 times at the plate and failed seven out of failure doesn’t, it can’t really scare me. I was trained and conditioned to fail more than I succeeded in sport. So it’s been kind of conditioned in me for years and years. You obviously don’t want to fail, but it’s okay. And it’s going to lead to success in the end. You know, and I also have this true belief and faith over fear, and that has been so sacred to me as well and, you know, kind of a driving force for me. And then I touched on it earlier: relationships must matter.
Now, I learned very early on, and I’m sure all the other coaches know this. No one really cares about what you know until they know how much you care. And I’m sure we’ve all heard that before. I can stay here and spout all sorts of things because I’m knowledgeable
about some things, at least I think I am. But how can I expect you, know, others to be led, want to be led, or even listen if I first don’t know how much I truly care about them? And, you know, if your actions aren’t louder than your voice, then ultimately your voice means nothing. can’t just talk it, speak it. must show it and be about it. So, if you ask, you know, any of my staff, colleagues, players in the past, there’s not one thing I’ll ask them to do that I didn’t do first myself or won’t do myself. Your commitment in the end. You know, has to be greater than your feelings, and that’s when you ultimately get results. And, you know, in my time as a leader, there’s rarely a week that goes by where I don’t ask my staff or teammates or, you know, colleagues, anyone, you know, how they’re doing. And that means outside of work. I don’t care about work. Let’s talk about life. You know, how’s life? What makes you, you know, what makes you go? What makes you shut down? You know, you need to know these things as a leader. To know how to push and where to push, and the best approach for each person- not everyone is a robot. Not everyone is the same and responds the same to different directions or feedback. So just getting to know your people matters. And even as a coach, for instance, there weren’t many days when I didn’t go up to each of my players and just ask them how they were doing. Told them I love them. There’s an exercise I love to do with my team and staff now that, you know, allows you to open and kind of be vulnerable. And I’m sure others have heard about it, but it’s a hero, a hardship, and a highlight. And you basically just ask your staff members to get in front of your team, be a little vulnerable, you know, one person a day for a few weeks, you know, ask them what a hero is in their life and why, what a hardship was in their life and why, and a highlight in their life and why. And you’d be amazed just how transformational that is for everyone involved. You know, we would have guys in tears in a good way, college kids.
Alan Grosbach (13:27)
Yeah.
Brandon Buchanan (13:27)
In a good way, just having the ability to open and share and be real with their teammates. Like that’s, that’s what you want. And, you know, ultimately, just to make this clear, I’m by no means, you know, there’s not one cookie-cutter approach to this; leading is ultimately learning. And I’ve done a lot of learning, and I continue to, I don’t know at all. Not everyone has to be the same, do the same, and not one approach is better than another, but you do the best you can with where, where you’re at with what you have. And it kind of goes back once again to me as a coach; I didn’t treat every hitter the same. You know, I didn’t turn my hitters into robots. So, for comparison in this instance, every conference, every leader doesn’t need to be the same. Every hitter’s stance, approach, rhythm, and timing can be different. But if you get in a good position to put a good swing on the ball, that’s all that matters in the end. And that’s what we try to do every day in the KCAC: let’s put good swings on pitches and be the best we can every single day with the, you know, resources and situation our conference is in. You know, and it’s ultimately not about beating the other guy or beating someone else. Yeah, we’re competitive. Let’s not get that wrong. And I’m not NAIA, but it’s about us in the KCAC just being the best we can, you know, be every day, showing up every day, being consistent every day. if we’re winning or losing, we’re providing steady leadership for all to follow. And that’s all we can control. And ultimately, progress happens through consistency.
Alan Grosbach (14:43)
Yeah. That’s awesome. So let’s talk a little bit about your student-athletes across the conference. Twenty-eight sports, big conference, a lot of sports, a lot of championships. What’s something that you hope those individuals gain beyond wins, losses, championships? Like what’s that experience piece that you’re really hunting for in those events as you as you serve as the commissioner of the KCAC?
Brandon Buchanan (15:03)
Absolutely. We have, by the way, we have 29 sports now. We just brought in men’s volleyball. So I don’t know. I’m a glutton for punishment, but we’re having another sport to our, to our list. But anyways, my genuine hope for any KCAC student-athlete, in fact, any NAIA athlete, is that they know I genuinely care about all of them first and foremost, that they feel important, they feel valued, and that they know I try to do everything I can every day to support them and give them the best experiences I can. And ultimately, in the end, they leave our campuses better than they came, then that’s the I touched on this earlier- but if they can be better human beings in life, then we’ve done our job. It’s bigger than wins, losses, and championships, like you said. It’s bigger than any of us, and I’m proud to be a small part of it, and part of something much bigger than myself.
We’re all sharpening each other in the end and pushing each other to provide the best experiences we can for our student-athletes. And that’s what I love about the NAIA and KCAC.
Alan Grosbach (15:53)
That’s the perfect way to end it, Austin. I think
Austin Bennett (15:55)
I think so.
Alan Grosbach (15:55)
I think we need to jump it into jump into our fast five. This is our lightning round, Brandon.
I do have to warn you, these often turn into moderate fives, but we’re gonna do our best to make them make it a fast five. So first gut thought, first gut reaction, first question. You can attend any sporting event in history. Where are you going?
Brandon Buchanan (16:15)
1980, Lake Placid, Miracle on Ice.
Alan Grosbach (16:16)
Ooh solid
Austin Bennett (16:16)
Ooh, wow.
Alan Grosbach (16:18)
Yeah, he does believe in miracles, Austin.
Brandon Buchanan (16:20)
Vital changing, game changing, life changing, yeah, I mean, I would have loved to have been there.
Austin Bennett (16:24)
So good, I’d love to have been in that locker room too. That would’ve been amazing.
Alan Grosbach (16:25)
Yeah, what a good poll on that one.
Austin Bennett (16:28)
You’ve worked with UFC fighters and now college athletes. Who’s tougher to manage?
Professional fighters or college coaches? And you can plead the fifth if you need to.
Brandon Buchanan (16:35)
You’re getting me in trouble here, Austin. Honestly, 95 % of the fighters were great to work with, but I still say professional fighters in the end. College coaches, I can sympathize and understand more from their side. I’ve been there; I’ve been in their shoes. But yeah, fighters were tougher to manage just from language barriers, time zones, personalities, pressures. Yeah…
Alan Grosbach (16:54)
Okay, interesting.
Brandon Buchanan (16:55)
Yeah, fighters, 100%.
Austin Bennett (16:55)
Noted.
Alan Grosbach (16:56)
Don’t know that I would have guessed that. Best school in the KCAC? Just kidding, don’t answer that. The correct answer is McPherson College, proud, proud alumni. But the real question is if you could spend one day shadowing any sports leader- we talked a lot about leadership, past or present- who would it be?
Brandon Buchanan (17:11)
Probably cliché, but John Wooden. I’ve read his books. I find his teachings, leadership qualities, and his why for everything he did are so fascinating. I’d just love to be a geek in his office and listen to him practice playing one day, him coach during practice, coach during a game. Yeah, John Wooden.
Alan Grosbach (17:25)
NAIA coach.
Austin Bennett (17:26)
What about you, Alan?
Alan Grosbach (17:27)
Hmm… trying to think. Sports leader. A little bit of regency bias here, and it’s more just fascination with the sport. I would love to sit in on an Andy Reid-like game week breakdown. Like, I don’t, I don’t know. Like some of them, and you know, name some different coaches in their field, but those that just like are so in depth and go down to every minute detail, I just find that truly fascinating. And so, I mean, John Wooden would
was up there in my brain too, but I didn’t want to duplicate an effort there. But an Andy Reid game week would be fascinating.
Austin Bennett (18:00)
Yes. Wow. Good one. So what’s the coolest behind-the-scenes sports moment you’ve ever witnessed that most fans never get to see?
Brandon Buchanan (18:09)
I’d say multiple kinds of moments. I’m still so fascinated and have kind of a profound respect for how UFC fighters arrive for their fight on fight night. Being back there, watching them arrive, how their pre-fight routine went behind the scenes, how they just kind of flipped the switch and just…flipped it when it was time to go and make that walk and being there in those tunnels when they’re making that walk, it was, you know, hearing the crowd, the walk out music, just them in their zone and their moment. I, you know, I have a tremendous respect for that, and we’ll always have respect for that because those athletes are not only tremendous athletes, but they were just so dang tough. And I just have a profound respect for them always will. And I will say, you know, I’ve been lucky to be behind the scenes in other sports, but the UFC and how they went from strategic thinking, event management, attention to detail, planning, promotion, communication, marketing, all those things have been such good things I’ve learned and transferred to wherever I go. That has taught me so much over those eight years.
Alan Grosbach (19:14)
Right, our last of our fast five. What’s something people would be surprised to learn about you?
Brandon Buchanan (19:17)
I’m going to say this just because I’m looking at it and we talked about it earlier, but I have had almost 3000 Peloton rides over the last seven years. I am a Peloton junkie. And it might be unhealthy at this point. There are days when schedules and plans have to be delayed because I haven’t ridden yet, and thank God my wife’s a saint and she lets me do that. I will also be remiss if I didn’t use this platform to talk about autism awareness, a little more serious though. I say this because I have autistic sons who are ages seven and four at home. Truly life-changing. They have taught me more about life than anyone ever has and will, and they are my heroes. And without a doubt, the toughest people I’ve ever known. And I would just encourage everyone to kind of know the facts about autism, be more aware, support it, learn about it, accept it. And that’s all we can continue to do. I’m not here to cram it down your throat or anything, but just learn about it, know about it, and be receptive to it. That’s all.
Austin Bennett (20:12)
Such a good message. Thank you for sharing that, being vulnerable.
Real quick, going back to the 3,000 rides, how many miles do you think that is?
Brandon Buchanan (20:19)
Oh boy…
Alan Grosbach (20:20)
He knows how many miles that is…
Brandon Buchanan (20:20)
I don’t actually, I can… There… Well, no,
Austin Bennett (20:20)
It’s like fifteen hundred miles. You doing half-mile rides or what?
Brandon Buchanan (20:25)
I… That’d be impressive. No, I would say there are usually 10 to 15 miles every time. So 30 to 45 minutes. Yeah, I don’t know the miles. I equate to how many miles I’ve traveled around the world in one day. Eventually I’ll get there, but I haven’t looked yet.
Austin Bennett (20:43)
Sure. Yeah, good. You’ll have to keep us in the loop then.
Alan Grosbach (20:44)
Okay, interesting. Yeah.
Brandon Buchanan (20:45)
I will.
Austin Bennett (20:47)
Well, Brandon, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate you taking the time to share your journey. Be vulnerable with us. All things from the world of UFC and professional sports to leading one of the NAIA’s premier conferences. Congrats to you on the successful first year in your role as commissioner of the KCAC. And we’re excited to see the impact you’ll continue to make on your member institutions and the thousands of student-athletes that you serve. So really appreciate the conversation, Brandon.
Alan Grosbach (21:09)
Yeah, thank you, Brandon.
Brandon Buchanan (21:09)
Yeah, of course. Thank you guys for having me. I love what you guys do. Keep it up. You guys are killing it. I really do appreciate everything you guys do. So thank you.
Austin Bennett (21:18)
You got it.
Alan Grosbach (21:19)
Austin, it’s time for a walk-off moment. What stuck out to you?
Austin Bennett (21:21)
Yeah, what stuck out to me is really the word service. From the jump, he talked about not only having a service mindset, but how many people he serves and the way that he serves them. And I think keeping that top of mind is important during the daily grind of the why and the who, all wrapped up into one. And so that’s my walk-off moment: the word service and how applicable it is to so many lines of business for us.
Alan Grosbach (21:43)
Yeah, yeah, I totally echo that. I also just say Brandon has such a passion for leadership, and that makes him, I think, really strong in that role. I mean, think about having, you know, how many schools does he have in his conference now? How many fourteen?
Austin Bennett (21:54)
Fourteen. Fourteen, yeah.
Alan Grosbach (21:58)
So, he’s got fourteen bosses; he’s got, you know, times student-athletes, times coaches, and just to have that passion for leadership and making the conference better is- it’s not nothing. It’s a big deal for a commissioner to have that mindset and be happy and excited that we have multiple that exist in that kind of similar space.
Austin Bennett (22:14)
No doubt. Well, Alan, that wraps us up for this episode. Thank you for listening to the Right Way to Play podcast. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, and share the episode with someone who believes in the power of education-based athletics.
Alan Grosbach (22:26)
Until next time, remember college athletics is more than a competition. It’s an opportunity to build character, develop leaders, and play the right way. Thanks for listening.
Austin Bennett (00:18)
Welcome to the Right Way to Play podcast. No hype, no fluff, just real conversations about character-driven competition and the future of college sports. Alan, here we go.
Alan Grosbach (00:27)
Awesome. It is season two. We’ve done this for a year. Excited to be back. Let’s go.
Austin Bennett (00:28)
Season two. Somehow we got renewed. Let’s do it.
Well, Alan, just like we kicked off
the season one, the premiere episode with Jim Carr, he’s back with us again for a timely conversation about one of the most significant topics facing the association. Five seasons of competition. So Jim is here to update us with where we’re at and the association and the process and what it all could mean and what happens next. Jim, welcome back to the podcast.
Jim Carr (00:52)
Thanks, Austin. Thanks, Alan. Yeah, great, great timing. Just finished some great fall meetings. So looking forward to talking about it all.
Alan Grosbach (00:58)
Yeah. Jim, I’m just gonna kick it off. So COP met over the weekend, or met recently, I should say, and they decided to bring official legislation forward on five seasons of competition to the membership. Talk us through kind of what the legislation is and what action this means, just for the membership or for the association as a whole.
Jim Carr (01:15)
Yeah, I mean it’s got a lot of moving parts to it, but I’ll try to make it as simple as I can.
As you mentioned, the Council of Presidents did take action over the weekend to move forward with five seasons of competition legislation. One thing that’s very different than what would normally happen. Normally, we would extend this, and we would have a lot of time between now and April for membership to digest it all and then have an in-person meeting in April. But the almost unanimous thought process from the membership, or the consensus of the membership, was that we need to expedite this so that if it is passed, the membership has a longer runway in order to implement it with recruiting and roster sizes and just giving student-athletes a chance to understand what it means to them. So we have an expedited process where this proposal coming from the C O P will be sent out to the membership no later than October the fifth. So, or early next week, with a business meeting set for November the fourth. It, of course, will be virtual. We’re not expecting everyone to come into Kansas City, but we’ll vote on the proposal November the fourth. The proposal essentially says we had several options that we looked at. We had a Path Forward Task Force that studied it over the course of a year.
COP has discussed it many times at their meetings, and essentially they landed on a model that keeps the flexibility and the structure that we have around terms of attendance. So student-athletes still have 10 terms to use. But where it used to be to play four seasons, this proposal would allow them to play five seasons within that ten-term limit. A little bit different than a different option that the NCAA has adopted around a clock and age-based rule, but essentially the same NAIA structure that our members like, but extended by one season.
Austin Bennett (02:46)
So Jim, you mentioned a lot of the work that’s gone on behind the scenes with the Path Forward Task Force, things like that. Share with us some other, maybe how we’ve captured the membership’s outlook or take on it through some surveying and such.
Jim Carr (02:56)
Yeah, so we’ve had surveys. We asked each council of presidents member to go out to their conferences, and it was really up to them who all they involved, but certainly their colleague presidents, and most of them included A D’s and certainly their commissioner to grab that feedback. But we did survey both our members, our primary constituents, including coaches, and then we had a survey that went out to student-athletes. We got about seven thousand student-athlete responses, which was great, so we can talk a little bit about what we heard from them. But I think the main thing is that everyone was supportive of moving to a fifth season, primarily to make sure that our coaches weren’t put at a recruiting disadvantage. So they had the same type of recruiting cycle or window or advantages that the NCAA has. asked about a lot of different models and different things, but the consensus was we’re in favor of five seasons, and then the majority certainly was in favor of the option that the Council President adopted.
Alan Grosbach (03:46)
Jim, Jim, let’s fast forward a little bit and we’re through November 4th and let’s just say this that it passes the membership vote that we’re we’ve impl we’ll be implementing a fifth season of competition. What does this mean for our current and future student-athletes? Like, who benefits from this? what are just some of the important things people should understand around around this and what it means?
Jim Carr (04:04)
Yeah, I mean it could I could get a little bit wonky and go into some of the, you know, the hypotheticals and things like that. But essentially, the way I think about it, I think the right way to think about it is if any student who has eligibility remaining in the twenty six twenty seven academic year, they they would be they have one one term and one season remaining in twenty six twenty seven, then they’re eligible for that fifth season. So it sounds pretty simple and I think it is, but I guess maybe talk a little bit about who’s not able to take advantage. If you, you know, finished in twenty four, twenty five and you used all four seasons, you can’t come back and now claim a fifth season. Your eligibility was exhausted, and therefore you wouldn’t be able to take advantage of the fifth season.
Alan Grosbach (04:45)
So there I’m just gonna add another question on top of that. I think there are two current rules that could cause some confusion. They kind of they’re kind of confusing in my mind, and they both revolve around this twenty percent threshold. Under under current NAIA rules, if you participate in twenty percent or more, you’re charged a season of competition, but then there’s also the flip side of like accountable financial aid and how you count towards the upper limits. Can you describe how those might change should this pass in November?
Jim Carr (05:09)
Yeah, so let’s let’s take the twenty percent rule that affects seasons of competition first. That is in our constitution and bylaws, so to change that does require a membership vote, just like adding a fifth season does. So what the Council of Presidents decided to do was in as part of the proposal, really two things. One is to extend our progress rule. You have to pass ninety-six hours in order to take advantage of the fifth season, but also to eliminate the twenty percent rule as it pertains to seasons of competition. So I I think most people in the association liked the twenty percent rule for seasons of competition. So students who might not get a chance to play a whole lot could be put into games up to twenty percent and not have that burn a season. But I think the thought process is now: you have ten terms to play five seasons; it really shouldn’t be an issue. And we don’t want people trying to protect a season and therefore then trying to extend even beyond five seasons. So essentially the way I think the kind of the for folks who aren’t all that familiar with our rules, the way to think about it is, you know, we’re we’re trying to eliminate all the exceptions. So there’s no need to redshirt people anymore. There’s no need to try to protect seasons because you have essentially five years of academics to play five seasons now.
But then when it then I’ll go over to the other twenty percent rule, which is you know each sport has an upper limit of how much aid a school can give for that particular program. And so, as the rule stands now, if you don’t play in twenty percent of your contest or allowable contest, then your aid as an individual student-athlete doesn’t count against your school’s upper limits. And so the the council of presidents, and by the way, this is a council of presidents policy because they govern financial aid. The current thought process is to leave that rule in place. So schools with large roster sizes now can still allow some participation by students and not have that count against their upper limits. The council basically made a statement that they weren’t planning to change that. It’s there really no action needed because you’re not changing a policy. But we wanted the membership to understand that that’s the intent, at least for the next three years, to keep that in place. And then we’ll do a lot of evaluation and understand how a fifth season’s impacting financial aid and could change things going forward. But for now it’s staying in place.
Austin Bennett (07:12)
Yeah, that’s great because that’s such a great retention tool as well for a lot of schools and a lot of sports. Jim, with any major decision, there’s gonna be people on both sides that agree and disagree. You know, some maybe think five seasons not long enough. What would you say to someone who disagrees with the concept of us moving to a fifth season of competition?
Jim Carr (07:26)
Yeah, I certainly get s some of the arguments, you know, from folks on the academic side or just, you know, people in in general. There are a lot of people who think four seasons is plenty, and one of our responsibilities at the NAIA and our Member Institutions is to try to get students through and get a degree in as short a time as possible. Mainly, it helps with cost. A lot of students are taking on debt, and we certainly want to help students to get out of school with as little debt as possible. So and then the other part of it is if there is some a little bit of fear, I I tend to have maybe more faith in our coaches than than others might, but the coaches will will ask students to extend their academic career when there’s really not a whole lot of benefit or value to it. You know, they’re already in a place to get a degree, but they might hold off to to play another season. But my view always comes back to I think we’re given giving people options, and it’s up to families and individual students if they think this is a good thing for them to stay another year and play; that’s really up to them, and our schools can certainly educate them and help them to evaluate the benefit of it. But that that was kind of one main reason that or the primary reason for people wanting to stay at four seasons. But as I mentioned before, kind of with the rest of the industry moving in that direction, I think it would have been a real challenge for us to stay at Four Seasons and not have students transfer out of our schools to go take advantage of Five Seasons somewhere else. And then, in terms of the options, the two primary options the COP considered: the one I already described that keeps our current structure in place, or kind of this five-year clock model, which is not only adopted by the NCAA, at least Division I and two right now, but there’s speculation that Division III will also adopt it. But it’s also what’s in the Protect College Sports Act, which passed the Senate earlier this week. Different opinions on whether that’s gonna pass the House at some point, but it’s also in that in that legislation. So some people say, well, we just need to be in the same place with the re rest of the industry. It also has some practical benefits with transfers. We’ll be under a very different model now than the NCAA, and under our current model and the NCAA’s previous model, we just accepted whatever their ruling was in terms of seasons of competition, but they won’t have that anymore. So w we have to figure out a different way to assess transfers coming into our system. So I get that, but I I I support the the flexibility and maintaining a differentiation for the NAIA that is all all present under the the model that’s moving forward. So kind of a long-winded answer there, Austin, but quite a few moving parts.
Austin Bennett (09:44)
No, yeah, that was great.
Alan Grosbach (09:45)
Yeah.
Austin Bennett (09:45)
Thank you.
Alan Grosbach (09:46)
Jim, let’s just kind of step out of the details of the specific legislation for a second. What do you think this overall concept of the fifth season says about kind of the association’s broader approach to education-based athletics?
Jim Carr (09:58)
You know, Alan, one of the kinds of going back to Austin’s previous question, I can’t maybe a criticism of moving to five seasons that somehow takes us out of outside of really our deep commitment to education-based athletics. And I I mean I guess I get that argument a little bit, just going back to what I was saying, that a lot of people think we have an obligation or a responsibility to help people move move through the system as quickly and as efficiently as they can. But I think it’s very consistent with the fact that some people- it’s just a fact- some people are taking longer than four years to get a degree, and so if they’re there at school, we all think that playing a sport adds to and supplements the educational process. So I think giving people a chance to continue to play while they’re pursuing that degree, or in many cases pursuing a graduate degree, is very consistent with education-based athletics.
Alan Grosbach (10:43)
Yeah, I I I personally agree. I I think it’s such a tool for education and obviously I’m excited about the NAIA and what we’re doing and how we’re moving forward and and you know, that’s kind of the basis of my question.
Jim Carr (10:54)
One thing I would just add, Alan, you know, I think it’s been a longstanding quality or value of the NAIA to say, you know, while in some places you’re getting a lot of restrictions around the time coaches can spend with their student-athletes and the time that people can spend in their sport. And and I get that to a certain extent. I mean, they’re students, and it shouldn’t get in the way of their academic pursuits. But at the NAIA we’ve always said, again, it’s a supplement to the overall education process.
You can build character through sports. You can learn so many things and build so many great attributes like discipline and the value of teamwork that you just quite frankly can’t get in the classroom. And so to then cut people off while they’re still in college and and wanting to pursue a degree is just just to me doesn’t make sense. And I think the NEI’s got it got it right. It’s the right way to play.
Alan Grosbach (11:37)
Yeah, it’s the right way to play.
Yeah.
Austin Bennett (11:39)
There you go.
Alan Grosbach (11:40)
All right. So the big date is November fourth. That’s when we’ll know more. That’s when the membership will vote, correct, Jim? So we’ll we’ll have an idea of our we’re how we’re moving forward after that.
Jim Carr (11:49)
That is correct. You got the midterm elections November third and then five seasons of competition November fourth. It just all rolls together.
Alan Grosbach (11:55)
Perfect. All right, Austin, let’s transition into our fast five.
Jim, this is our lightning round. You’ve done this before. Five questions, no overthinking, first gut reaction. If you were given a fifth season of competition, what sport would you choose and what position would you play?
Jim Carr (12:13)
Well, after my performance shooting in my shooting contest with you guys last year, it’s definitely not basketball anymore. I I’m gonna go with golf ’cause that’s probably the least least chance I would get hurt.
Austin Bennett (12:24)
Good answer. Although I would say we probably didn’t give you enough rhythm or warm-up time. So we alternate. If you got a shot all five in a row, I think we’d have been in trouble.
Jim Carr (12:31)
Yeah, you guys are awfully nice, but I just stunk it up. Let’s just face the fact.
Austin Bennett (12:35)
Question two: Who would you want to play you in a movie about your life?
Jim Carr (12:40)
first person that popped into my mind was Will Ferrell. I have no idea why. I don’t you know.
Austin Bennett (12:43)
I like it.
Jim Carr (12:44)
We’re we’re we’re we’re both tall. You know, that’s about it, I guess. Yeah. For anybody that’s watched The Hawk, though, I don’t I probably shouldn’t say that on on camera. That that would be something that would be good.
Alan Grosbach (12:53)
What’s your must-have concession stand food at a sporting event?
Jim Carr (12:58)
I’m a hot dog guy ’cause, you know, especially baseball, you go to the ballpark, you gotta have a hot dog.
Austin Bennett (13:01)
Yeah. Mustard ketchup.
Alan Grosbach (13:02)
Yeah, agreed.
Austin Bennett (13:03)
What’s on it? Yeah.
Jim Carr (13:04)
I d I kinda do both, yeah. I mean, if I go brat or something like that, I go mustard, but hot dog, ketchup
Austin Bennett (13:08)
Nice.
Jim Carr (13:08)
mustard.
Austin Bennett (13:09)
You could have a front-row seat at any sporting event in history; which one would you choose?
Jim Carr (13:13)
I’d probably I think people in the office know I’m a New Orleans Saints fan and I I didn’t go to the Super Bowl when they won it, so I’d probably go with that.
Austin Bennett (13:19)
Good choice. Good choice.
Alan Grosbach (13:20)
That would be fun.
Finish this sentence for me, Jim. You know you’ve been the NAIA president for a long time when?
Jim Carr (13:26)
When people ask you if you knew James Naismith.
Alan Grosbach (13:28)
Does that happen regularly?
Jim Carr (13:30)
I think it’s happened once, but it was like not quite that old, but yeah. I didn’t see the first tournament
Alan Grosbach (13:32)
Ha ha ha.
Austin Bennett (13:32)
Well, so for your sake then, do you want to
Jim Carr (13:34)
game in nineteen thirty-seven either.
Austin Bennett (13:36)
Say for
Alan Grosbach (13:36)
Yeah.
Austin Bennett (13:36)
your sake, do you want to put that to bed then and say you actually never met him?
Jim Carr (13:40)
I didn’t meet him. I met John Wooden,
which was one of the highlights of my career, but not James Naismith.
Austin Bennett (13:45)
It’s so good.
Alan Grosbach (13:46)
That is really good.
Austin Bennett (13:47)
Well, Jim, thank you for joining us and helping bring such clarity to such an important and timely conversation. We obviously appreciate your perspective and definitely your leadership and commitment to keeping the NAIA members and student-athletes at the center of this process. We’ll continue to keep our listeners informed as five seasons discussions move forward. Jim, thanks again for being part of the Right Way to Play podcast.
Jim Carr (14:06)
Yeah, thanks, guys. You guys make it easy, and just a big shout-out to our membership for the way that we’ve gone through this process, and we look forward to having a vote on November the fourth.
Alan Grosbach (14:14)
Yeah, thanks, Austin, it’s time for a walk-off moment. What’s your big takeaway?
Austin Bennett (14:18)
Well, it was gonna be around education-based athletics, and then Will Farrell got thrown in. And so kind of now imagining Jim in that position. But no, I really love how education-based athletics is still at the center of the potential decision on five seasons of competition in ten semesters. I think there’s still a path there that the education’s the key piece. You can still play the sport you love, obviously have a great experience there, but making sure that we’re not only differentiating ourselves, but we’re keeping people on track to graduate as well.
Alan Grosbach (14:44)
Yeah, I I think for me it’s just that, you know, we’re an organization that continues to evolve and and make change that better support our student athletes and kind of and and find the right way to play and and and be the right way to play. And to me that’s that’s just really exciting. You know, it’s easy for organizations that have been around for a long time to kind of get stuck in mud and
Austin Bennett (15:00)
Mm-hmm.
Alan Grosbach (15:00)
we’re just not willing to do that at the N AI. And I always that about our leadership and our specifically.
Austin Bennett (15:04)
Amen.
Well, thank you to everyone for listening to the Right Way to Play podcast. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, be sure to subscribe, leave us a review, and share this episode with someone who believes in the power of education-based athletics.
Alan Grosbach (15:16)
Until next time, remember that college athletics is more than competition. It’s an opportunity to build character, develop leaders, and play the right way. Thanks for listening.
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